I’m confused

Trigger Finger Pro out of Sync

Unable to sync Trigger Finger Pro with Logic.
I have follow the Youtube tutorial, all works, but TFP sequencer is out of sync ... (about 26ms)

Many other gears (Elektron Machinedrum, Octatrack etc. works perfect with logic)

Can you help me?
Excuse for bad english :-)
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  • So you have synced TFP and Logic, your problem is there's 26ms latency, right?
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  • I’m frustrated
    Yes,

    I have synced TFP with Logic (and Ableton live, same problem)

    But, 26ms of latency make the internal sequencer useless.
    All is out of sync with the metronome, and if i record a loop of beat in Logic (for example), from TFP sequencer. The recorded take is out of Sync.

    Failed product??
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  • 1
    Any external hardware triggering software will suffer delay/latency. I'm not home and can't check but I know in Live you can adjust for this, did you try? https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/s...

    This lag is a fact of life not present in uour hardware boxes.
    Hope that helps
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  • Hello Edoardo,

    Thanks for posting! Thanks for the help Nikolai!

    This is an unfortunate reality of MIDI clock sync. It does vary by DAW or sequencer; some are worse than others.

    Ableton's sync delay is adjusted in the Preferences>MIDI Sync menu, in this case you'll adjust it in the TFP Mackie Output port:



    And Logic does so in the Project Settings>Synchronization>MIDI section:

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    • Dan? It'd be awesome if on a break, you would exchange that image above, with one featuring the orange arrow, properly positioned, so a casual reader isn't misinformed. Doing so would reflect positively on InMusic if such upload errors in the forum were replaced with accurate ones, as a common practice, as a demonstration of a committnent to excellence.

      As you're likely aware, excellence requires attention to detail which goes a long way in winning new customers and retaining those you have, for future product purchasing potential. We end-users need every bit of InMusic's effort to that end. Thank you in advance.☺
    • DONE! :)
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  • Many thanks!

    But ... if i set delay compensation here:


    works ....

    But here:



    No.

    What is the difference betwen these settings?
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  • Honestly, I'm not sure. My guess would be the menu I posted is specifically for MIDI clock and for the output port you selected, TFP Mackie in this case.

    The Preferences Sync menu appears to be a global delay on all MIDI outputs, perhaps even note/CC messages as well (not just clock data).

    In either case, happy to hear it's worked!
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  • I’m sad
    I have investigate,

    For Me the Trigger Finger Pro internal sequencer it's still unusable!
    For example, i have an akai max25 keyboard with internal sequencer.
    It works perfect without midi delay compensation!
    Same for elektron octatrak midi......

    It's My trigger finger failed, or any trigger finger pro have the same problem??

    I have buy it for live performance, but, if the internal sequencer it's not in sync with other machines .. it's a great problem!!!

    Sorry for english ...
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  • You mentioned having a few other sequencers that were working well. Are these all connected together?

    Do you have multiple USB/MIDI connections? Using a hub?

    Maybe a USB/MIDI interface that this all connects too?

    Or, you could try to recreate the same symptoms with only the TFP connected. Hope this gets us closer!
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  • I have an Akai Max 25 (with internal sequencer) connected via USB,
    it works perfect!

    I do not use usb hub anymore for audio device,
    i have try to connect only TFP to my mac, same problem.

    Thanks for reply!
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  • 2
    Ok I hope I am on the same page with this, here is what I have found.

    Using Logic and Reaper and monitoring the MIDI messages with MIDI monitor on my Mac, I've noticed the following (these findings are unaffected by hubs. I got the same results with my sequencers directly connected or routed through one or two hubs).

    I have tested both an Arturia Beatstep and the TFP. In Logic I need to set a delay of around 42 Ticks under Project Setting MIDI Sync to bring both sequencers into sync when being controlled and recordedby Logic..

    If I record earth sequencer from the start of bar one, everything works well and is nearly perfectly in sync bar a tick or two which is fixed with quantisation. But if I change the recording start to any other bar the Beatstep is fine but the TFP starts one step after the start. If it is set to 16th timing the start of the first note will be a 6th further on than the desired position.

    I have found that setting the start to be just before (even by a tiny amount) the first note of the sequence will be where it should have been.

    Watching the actual signals both from the DAW and the sequencers shows that both play the first note immediately after they receive a Start message from the DAW but when they receive a Continue message only the Beatstep responds immediately. The TFP waits till the start of the next step, before sending the first note.

    Both Logic and Reaper work the same way. They only send a Start message when the recording is set to the beginning of the first bar. If recording starts anywhere else, they send a Continue message.

    This is inline with the MIDI Beat Clock protocol. Clock messages are sent in line with the Tempo. Start, Continue and Stop messages control the slave devices.

    Therefore it looks like the TFP's needs to be updated to handle Continue messages correctly.
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  • Today i have sent my unit back to the store.

    Same for me, i suspect it's a problem with internal firmware of the unit.

    When they sent me back the unit, i update this thread.
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  • I would have held onto it unless you are going to get a refund and go with a different hardware sequencer. . The store can't fix firmware, that's a task for M-Audio's techs. And when they do release an updated firmware we should be able to upload it ourselves.
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  • Good work all round, thanks. Yes, I don't believe replacing the machine will 'fix' anything, you never know though. I suppose at this point you need to decide whether this is a critical issue for you and whether you can wait for a firmware update.
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  • 3
    I'm starting to make progress now. Having worked out how to record TFP MIDI in Logic in sync (using the work around I've described previously).

    I build the beats on the TFP and save each variation to one of the 16 sequence slots. Then I set the TFP in External timing mode and use the Next Sequence to record each sequence, one after the other into Logic.

    Works well and allows me to tweak any of these sequences later again on the TFP. I then use the backup in Arsenal to store these sequences for later.

    I'm actually starting to produce something finally. Feels good.
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  • On youtube, in the "setup TFP with Logic" video, on M-Audio Youtube channel,
    the TFP it's in synch with logic metronome ....

    Mine not!
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  • This reply was removed on 2014-10-02.
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  • 1
    I know English is not easy for you but can you tell me if you are recording MIDI from the TFP and your other hardware sequencers or using Logic to play them live (or a combination of both)?

    If you are performing live and don't need Loguc to play prerecorded midi or audio, you might be better using Main Stage.

    Logic is a pig to manage multiple MIDI ports and channels, it won't slave to the MIDI Beat Click messages and only has limited MIDI timing adjustments. (Though I have noted that there is a Ticks delay parameter, per track, accessed via the Track's Region Inspector. Not sure if this might help pull the TFP in line though, as I haven't played with the setting yet).

    So far, other than the 40 tick sync adjustment and the problem related to a delayed start after a MIDI Clock Continue message, I think my TFP is syncing exactly with Logic.

    I will do some further tests. To see if the TFP syncs when Logic is only playing. I'll just record a quarter beat to a seperate midi track in Loguc and the TFP (simpler for me than the metronome) and listen to hear if the TFP and Logic beats are in sync.

    By the way, you are setting the TFP's clock to External via the Prefs menu?
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  • I’m frustrated
    I use a combination of both.
    I play Geist (a powerful drum machine) in logic with TFP.

    The problem it's not only in Logic, but in Ableton too ....
    I have another Midi controller with internal sequencer (Akai Max 25), and it works perfectly!

    If i set my delay compensation in Logic (for me, 52 ticks), the Akai it's out of sync ...

    I have buy TFP for the ability to manage patterns on the fly onboard. If the problem persist, for me it's Useless
    • I tried getting scientific last night. I ran a range of tests with and without the 40 tick delay. I also used a tempo map to keep increasing the tempo (10 to 320 bom so far). Using a smiple 3 kick and 1 snare repeating bar, one track made in Logic the other on the TFP, everything stayed in perfect sync. But only if I started from 1.1.1.1 (that is at the exact start of the song).
    • This comment was removed on 2014-10-08.
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  • I remember the problems I had with setting up the TFP with Reaper. Reaper uses SPP-Protocol (song position pointers) which - like Paul described above - needs exact positions (I don ́t know if this applies to Logic as well). For me working with Reaper and TFP is a no-go now, I tried using vst-based midi-clock sync what worked AFAIR, but Live had no syncing problems at all. You can ́t blame the hardware in this case I guess, because it doesn ́t say it works with SPP does it? Midi synchronization is a bit of a black sheep to the industry I guess ;-)
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  • I'll have to take the DAWs one at a time, so I started with Logic. I see exactly what Paul is talking about; all is good if you're "jammin' on the one". If you don't start at one, an absolute shift in the clock is present.

    I'm trying to find an answer here within Logic's routing... as this reminds me of using my Moog Minitaur. It doesn't have a clock, but I remember using it happily as an external MIDI instrument. However, once I added the Moog software editor AU on to a track, there was a delay. Even if the editor was not "talking to" any of the Moog's MIDI ports, just having the plugin added created the delay; almost like some extra port is opened or "being processed" somewhere that is creating the delay.

    So, that the Song Position Pointer seem like the right explanations. Let me keep diggin' here. Thanks so much for your help, everyone!
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  • Dan

    I have to get the energy to write all my findings up but the simple answer is that the TFP is not counting the first MIDI Beat Clock, Clock message after a MIDI Beat Clock Start or Continue message has been sent by the Master device.

    MIDI Clocks are sent in time with the tempo of the Master. There are 24 of them per quarter note. When a Start event is sent the slave is suppose to start on the first Note in the sequence and send the Note On event on that first Clock, which will be sent immediately unless a sync delay has been specified, (TFP does this). The slave then counts clocks to determine when to stop and start all future notes.

    When a Start message is sent, the Master is indicating that the slave should start at the beginning of the song / sequence (TFP does this) but if you examine the length of the first note you will see that the TFP sends a Note Off event 1 Clock short (thus shortening the length of the first note by a 1/24 of a quarter note) everything after this is now one clock early, thus the sync issues we have been seeing.

    In Logic and (maybe in all MIDI device)s a single Clock equals 40 Ticks - that is why the Logic's MIDI Sync Delay must be set to +40 Ticks. The effect of this is to delay or advance when Logic sends the first Clock. In my case it waits 40 Ticks (One Clock) after the Start message before sending the first Clock.

    With a +40 delay, the first note that the TFP sends is still short by a Clock (40 Ticks) but the start of all other notes are now in sync with Logics Piano roll and have the correct length.

    This solution will cause further problems though, as it will interfere with the timing of other slaves that behave differently or correctly such as my Arturia BeatStep that requires that the clock is not delayed at all.

    By the way, I performed all my tests with quantisation off, otherwise timing issues can be hidden by the notes being pulled in line with the nearest 1/16 beat (the default quantisation setting in Logic). I use the free MIDI Monitor app to watch the MIDI events being sent and received between Logic and the TFP.

    I have to think about how to explain what happens when the Master starts the clock after the start of the song and how this relates to the syncing problems with the TFP. I will post about this later. It is interesting to note that the TFP even has syncing problems when the recording is paused and restarted, without any changes being made in Logic (I will also describe this later).

    What I do know is that when a Continue message is sent, the TFP again miscounts the first Clock and the +40 Tick delay is still required, what is also seen is a large delay between the Continue message and the start of the first note from the TFP.

    As for Song Position Pointer messages, these provide a number to the slaves that represents how many 1/16 notes after the start of the song the slave should start at (the SPP will send a value of 0 if recording is to start at the beginning of the song).

    In the case of the TFP this would be related to the position within the sequence it should start (my BeatStep listens to SPPs and will start the sequence based on the position in the song that the recording is set to start). If I want to record from the start of the BeatSteps sequence, somewhere other than the start of the song, I have to place the play head on the start of the correct bar (this will be based on a bar that is a multiple of length of the sequence multiplied by the time division set in the Beatstep), otherwise it starts somewhere else in the sequence.

    I also 'think' that when the SSP/Clock is sent, a number of Clock messages are sent milliseconds apart, to allow the Slave to know exactly when to start playing the first note and where the start of the recording (in Clocks past the SSP 1/16 position) is to start in the song and there for the slave's sequence.

    More research is required on my behalf to understand and explain this better.

    I think it is here that the TFP is getting confused and delaying the start of the first note by one time division or maybe a 1/16 of a bar. Not sure yet. I do know that if the start of the recording is a few ticks before where I want the TFP to start playing and I have the Sync delay set to 40 ticks, I can get the TFP to sync properly (sort of).

    The TFP ignores SPP and will start playing at the next note in its sequence. This can be good and bad depending on what you want. I have to constantly turn off external clocking, press stop and then return the TFP to extern clocking. Actually what I do now is use the Next Sequence button, set the TFP to One Shot and play, set Logic to the start of the Song and play each sequence in turn. I then cut up and colour and name the sequences in logic for later use. I am still refining this approach but I think I will have a separate MIDI track, with not Instrument set, in logic to record to and then I can just copy the sequences to the tracks I want them to be on.

    Over all I think the TFP should have a setting to either listens or ignore SSP messages and if it is set to ignore SSP, treat a Continue message as a Start message and reset to the start of the Sequence.

    I will post more on the problems related to the TFP and Continue/SSP messages soon.

    Here are some links that explain the MIDI Beat Clock specifications and the Song Position Pointer specifications.

    http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MID...
    http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MID...
    http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MID...
    • Thanks for the info! I totally understand, no need to go further.

      Makes perfect sense when you change tempo or build a tempo map and see how the TFP's start point variation behaves in relation (when starting mid track).

      In either case, I have a way to reproduce the primary symptom here quite easily. I'll let the team know!
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  • I am having the same issue, only using it with external gear only! I use it to master clock my volcas and had previously recorded BLANK wav files that were tempo matched to various banks (depending what tempo I want to loop) to record guitar/keys/ whatever.

    Up until now, I've never had a problem when using my korg kaoss pad as master, or other devices They have always run in sync with my blank files, however the TFP starts drifting quite badly. Three measures in It's noticeable 6 measures and its disaster...not good.

    Useless if this is the case. I am hooked up to my computer ...will try stand alone mode...update in a few minutes
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  • Sadly I can confirm it happens in stand alone mode, completely detached from a computer. It has a faster tempo that is non standard. I hope firmware update this asap because I'll be bring it back for refund. So many issues thus far with this. Still Can't get it working all of arsenal. Too bad! It looks and feels so good!
    • I am having similar issues. Need a firmware update soon or I'll have to return and go with another brand. My friend has been using his Maschine to quickly create compositions for every reply I make on this forum, simply to rub in my face these issues with TFP...and with such an efficient workflow, it takes him about as long for each song as it does for me to reply. >:O
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  • I have been having TFP since july, just been collecting dust... Sync is horrible and recording midi-clips starts one beat off (useless). It looks and feels great, but something is seriously wrong with this hardware. (not very well thought through i presume)
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    • well, I wouldn ́t say waste, because with live it runs pretty much ok, and hardware sequencing works as well. But if you run live, you are better off with push and the sync issues should be fixed (but nothing that can ́t be done with a firmware update). OK, they should have done it right in the first place, but I ́m staying at least ́til the first update arrives :-)
    • I am also hanging in there, hoping a lot a new firmware update or something
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  • I’m confused
    yes, pretty lame to drop 400 plus tax, on a device that hasn't been fixed and its been in stores for 6 months?? Had I known this, i'd have not purchased it. 400 is a good chunk of change, and this sync issue needs to be resolved. I heard previously that m-audio had terrible customer service.... I'm starting to wonder if that is correct.
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  • 3
    Yes, I agree M-Audio has been caught with their pants down.

    I am lucky, in that I have the technical background to identify and work around the issues. I'm also used to this crap from many quartets of the software and tech industry. Unfortunately, M-Audio are not the only company to push out untested and broken products.

    I'm fighting with RØDE Mics to fix their iPhone RØDE Rec App, so that it actually works and I can start to get to use my expensive RØDE iXY iPhone microphone.with it. Thankfully, I have just found another App that will use the mic and is functionally better that RØDE's. I just wish I could combine the two Apps ., better yet had a fully functional App from RØDE Mics to begin with.

    Sometimes I wish I'd paid the extra AU$250 and got Maschine but then I know the TFP is still more suited to the way I work. I need to build my beats up slowly and work with all kinds of plugins. The TFP offers this. Though further research on Maschine seams to indicate it does all of this and more.

    If M-Audio doesn't fix these basic, yet serious, flaws, I will be requesting an refund authority from them. Under Australian consumer protection law, a refund must be made for a product that is defective and does not comply with its own specified capabilities. Currently the TFP fails in these areas.
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    • Hi Nikolai!

      I'd like to help, but the dealer/distributor you purchased your M-Audio product from determines their own policies and myself or M-Audio is unable speak to that in any way.
      As always, I'm happy to submit feature requests, work through problems with everyone here, and update everyone with news or updates when they're released/announced publicly.
      In either case, I'm very thankful for all your help over the past few months, despite that you were having difficulty with your TFP.
    • So the M-Audio Factory Direct ebay store is not affiliated with M-Audio?
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  • 1
    Just concurring with you guys sync is broke, and for me using presonus studio one2 more ( although have got the same issues testing on other DAW regarding Sync) but in studio one the software pad fx and other Drop down menus in arsenal software are locked out/wont switch option so its totally broke. and another arsenal software issue in ableton,on times my samples will only drop to sample slot B and no matter what method I repeat or try and on restarting I can not put the sample to slot A, so that just messes up my whole customised drum kit /confuses the situation if all my other sample and pads are set to sample slot A.

    Good luck guys, I have had to disown mine back to store for a credit note.
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  • This reply was removed on 2014-12-17.
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  • Hello all,

    There are a few different variations on the term "sync" being used here. The first is covered at the top of thread, related to very small but constant delays between the Trigger Finger Pro and a DAW software (with the DAW as the master).
    This is a normal occurrence with any MIDI devices sharing a MIDI clock signal. Most DAW software has a "MIDI Delay Compensation" setting of some sort to resolve this, generally on the scale of less than a 100ms correction.

    The other "sync" behavior being talked about here is related to the Trigger Finger Pro's handling of some of the more specific components of the MIDI Clock signal. One such message in the MIDI Clock stream sent from a DAW software is called "Song Position Pointer".
    Basically this command tells a sequencer like the TFP to navigate to a specific location within a song and within a particular bar (ex, Bar 1 Beat 4 etc...). The conflict comes with the fact that your DAW is a practically infinitely long sequencer, while the TFP is not.
    The Trigger Finger Pro does not support Song Position Pointer messaging. When starting your DAW in the middle of the project (not at 0), this Song Position Pointer message may cause the Trigger Finger Pro to begin out of sync (generally off by a sixteenth note or other discrete value).

    Many DAWs will allow the Song Position Pointer message to be removed or disabled. In Logic Pro X, for instance;

    1) Go to Logic Pro X>Preferences>MIDI.
    2) In the "Sync" tab there is a check box for "Allow to send Song Position Pointer while playing" that you can uncheck.

    Or, in Ableton Live:

    1) Open the Preferences>MIDI Sync menu.
    2) Every available MIDI Port in the lower section has a drop down menu, unfolded by clicking the triangle to the left of the port.
    3) One of the extra options is "MIDI Clock Type". Setting this to "Pattern" will disable MIDI messaging that may cause the aforementioned sync behavior.

    I hope this helps clear up any difficulty and perhaps provide a way to use your Trigger Finger Pro with your DAW of choice smoothly.

    Thanks for participating here and for your time!
    • Are you able to explain why the TFP, when being used to master external gear in my case three volcas and a Kong r3 the time code does not match a typical tempo? When I do a four measure (or bar) recording and try to use my Zoom R8 multitrack recorder to sync the recording to the tempo grid at say 120 bum, it does not line up? I cross referenced this with live, Cubase, reason and my kp3 and prerecorded tracks I get the same result. The TFP seems to drum to its own beat, literally. The drift is so bad you literally can't use a tempo grid or the recorded loop will glitch. Curious to how to remedy this. As a stand alone performance tool it's fantastic but as soon as you try to incorporate it into existing gear (all of which follow an almost exact timecode) it won't sync. I thought that was the sole purpose of midi. To sync?
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  • I am returning mine. How do I unregister the product? I have looked under "my products" but cannot see where to unregister?
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    • Also please believe that i wont rest until m-twatio is litigated into oblivion for making intentionally misleading statements and is therefore guilty of a tort against its customers.
    • damian, it might be useful to save the image in the below posts in case it is removed again. Paul did excellent work creating it and I feel it is important to show exactly how the TFPro doesn't work correctly.
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  • Dan, does turning of SPP fix the miscounted first clock when syncing the TFP from the beginning of the song (that is after it receives a MIDI Beat Clock start message)?

    It's a shame that the TFP handles the SPP so badly, it could also still create a problem for any Hardware related syncing, if the other hardware sends SSP and it can't be turned off.

    Going by memory, I think the TFP also sends SSP when it's in Master (Internal) mode.

    Not having a TFP now I can no longer test this. Maybe someone else on the forum might do some MIDI Monitoring and watch what is sent out by the TFP when it is in Internal Clock mode.

    So there really needs to be a firmware fix for this, even if the above work-a-round can resolve some of the DAW related issues.
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  • since this thread:

    http://community.m-audio.com/m-audio/...

    was merged with the current thread, I cannot seem to find that beautiful graph that Paul posted, showing how the notes/timing is skewed by the broken external sync of the MIDI beat clock. I didn't see the details in the change log either.

    Dan, was the post/image removed from this thread? If so, why? Paul, did you intentionally remove that post/image you created? The party I'm working with wanted to see this image, and we find it funny that it has seemingly disappeared from the site. I'm I just being thick and missing it or was it purposely removed?

    this is the image I'm talking about:
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  • No. I didn't remove it. Dan posted a 'work-a-round', stating that the DAW should be set not to send SSP messages. I've no way to test if this works or not. But it would only fix sync after a continue message (that is such as when the DAW is recording after the start of the song).

    You still face the problem of the requirement to have a delay of 40 ticks because of the miscounted first clock after a start message.

    With the delay set, when I was testing, it would only worked if the midi was recorded after a start, otherwise, after a continue message, the delay was not wanted and threw the timing out again.

    I asked Dan about this but never got a reply. I gather, as far as InMusic Brands is concerned, this is the end of the matter. Don't expect a firmware update to fix the SSP issues or the miscounted clock.

    Someone else needs to do the testing I did, with SSP off on the DAW and report the results here.
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  • So, is there going to be a firmware update to resolve this sync issue Dan R?
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  • 1
    i would write a long comment here, but I can't be bothered. I'm glad I got rid of it and feel sorry for those posting here expecting help, which also means they've been caught in InMusic Brand's money trap. Caveat Emptor!
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    • This comment was removed on 2015-02-17.
      see the change log
    • It seems to be InMusic's short-sighted approach more than anything, which is:

      knock something up that's rough round the edges but pretty decent on paper > sell some based on ads and pre-release hype > don't support it at all, in spite of confirmed problems > bitter/alienated customers/refunds > bad web/press > half-price sales > let it die > rinse and repeat with a new product/generation

      vs

      spend a couple of grand on someone updating the software > happy users > good feedback > sell more > keep making more cash in the future and see your brand rep grow

      which of these 2 is a more sustainable, modern....smart approach that doesn't fill the world with junk?

      sketchy/invisible support and rubbish non-forum only makes it easier for them to carry on as they are now. If you want to see more InMusic brand excellence in action, def. check the videos and see where the comments go...actually quite entertaining

      https://www.gearslutz.com/board/namm-...
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  • I'm really disappointed with this as Im finally just getting into home music production and bought this instead of push after researching for days.

    I've approached inMusic re return and will see how they behave. Fortunately I have 90 days return cover via Amex in the event that they start trying to be difficult.
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  • I’m Angry, frustrated
    1
    Ok, I just got my TFP, I'm using Ableton Live. I can't get it to sync even after changing to "Pattern". This is absurd, I withdraw my rating of the TFP.

    ESPECIALLY since there is no ability to output sequences as Midi Files (one would think...duh....)

    Maschine works fine, WTF M-Audio?
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  • 1
    Bottom Line: Make sure the tempos are the same in your DAW as TriggerFinger Pro.
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    Oh boy. Good to see that this mess is all fixed now. Not!

    Way to go InMusic Brands (IMB).

    Best fix for TFP Sync is to get rid of it and go with another manufacture's product and not one from the wide range of (IMB) 'brands'.

    How much suffering do new TFP owners have to go through before IMB fix their duds?
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